Talk:Margaret Brown

"unsinkable" conflict

There is a conflict in the article. At the start it says she wasn't referred to as 'unsinkable' until her death had happened, but in the section on the Titanic, it indicates that she was called 'unsinkable' for the rest of her life. --Peacenik 00:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It's her being called "Molly" that was posthumous, not her being referred to as "unsinkable." Kostaki mou (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

You know that comment was from 12 years ago, right? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:43, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

So what?Kostaki mou (talk)

Just checked the text from that time. My comment would have been valid even then. Kostaki mou (talk) 18:40, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

so was she was known as "the unsinkable Maggie Brown" while still alive, then? 2601:19C:527F:A660:DF2:5F76:A560:FC6F (talk) 19:47, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

On that subject, it says that the "Molly" nickname was coined by the musical of that name, but apparently she was called "Molly Brown" in A Night to Remember two years earlier? 79.71.56.130 (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed that sentence here. I am going to poke around about her nicknames. I know that she was often called Maggie Brown and have no idea when "Molly" was first used.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

This book says:

Margaret Tobin Brown was never called Molly Brown; the name is a Hollywood invention. Margaret was known as Maggie as a child and young woman; after that, she was called Margaret or, more formally after her marriage, Mrs. J. J. Brown. Richard Morris, who wrote The Unsinkable Molly Brown, chose the name "Molly" because, he said, it was easier to sing. Molly it was and Molly it's been ever since.

And this book says:

As such, costume is not allowed to distract from the overall purpose of being faithful to the 'facts' which by 1958 had almost become myth: White Star Line manage director Bruce Ismay's escape; the tragedy of the deficiency of lifeboarts and the cheery stoicism of the "unsinkable" Molly Brown, not named in A Night To Remember, but unmistakably present.

The book A Night To Remember (on which the movie is based) only calls her Mrs. James J. Brown, Mrs. J. J. Brown, and Mrs. Brown. I've never seen the movie so I don't know whether "Molly" is ever said in it. Schazjmd (talk) 21:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

vacation 173.235.63.196 (talk) 17:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I searched newspapers for the use of "Molly Brown" and titanic and found an ad for the song "Molly Brown" - "Titanic souvenir pom" in 1913 here. and there's one that says here that says "Free beautiful souvenir poem". I am not sure if they are referring to the song "Molly Brown" - or something that they'll give you if you buy the song "Molly Brown".

Margaret Tobin Brown is decidedly referred to as "Molly Brown" in this 1934 article (first column, three paragraphs below the image) and many other articles later that year, which means to me that someone already thought she was called Molly Brown. I don't see any other use of "Molly Brown" with titanic between 1913 and 1934. It looks like "Molly Brown" and unsinkable both started in 1934.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Great find with that 1934 article! The book that it quotes, Timber Line, was published in 1933. Schazjmd (talk) 22:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Aren't you something? (I missed that in the article). I just found that too here. I tried searching a lot of ways, including J.J. Brown and J. J. Brown, since she was commonly called Mrs. J.J. Brown in the 1910s and 1920s. The 1933 book is the earliest I could find.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Within a year of her death...Fowler didn't waste any time! Schazjmd (talk) 22:22, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I just found the earliest reference to unsinkable in 1930 here by just searching Colorado newspapers. It seems to me that she may have gotten "Molly" from Denver gossipers, especially those from the social scene that she wanted to be part of. Taking my dog for a walk - not sure what we can do with this, but it's been fun.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:29, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I made changes to the article here, based on this discussion.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Petty Vandalism

In the second paragraph of 'Richs and Riches', there seems to be a bit of petty vandalism. Now I don't know what's supposed to be said (though I have an incling), so someone who does should fix that.

"1909 and 1914 she ran for Congress; she also assisted in poo poo shops Denver's Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception which was completed in 1912. " (Foxpen (talk) 06:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC))

Congress

Wasn't Brown the first woman to run for U.S. Congress. The article on congress doesn't mention her, but I recall reading somewhere that she was the first woman to run for Congress, but didn't make it.--Wikiphilia 04:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

WWI

HOw does this article relate to WWI? Crisco 1492 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Brain cancer

The article says only that she died in her sleep, yet she's in a category for brain cancer. Did she have brain cancer? Was this the casue of her death? If so, the time that she died (while asleep) is irrelevant, since she died from brain cancer. Stearnsbrian (talk) 19:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Catherine Brown's information

Catherine Ellen Brown ("Helen"), was born on July 1, 1889 , it states her husband lived from 1877 - 1907. But she was married on April 7, 1913. Something is amiss I believe...167.207.128.101 (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Titanic

Why is there not much mentioned about her experience on the Titanic? I'm not saying it should be the major part of the bio but I do think it should be mentioned more than it was in this article. Does anyone have anything? If so please add it.

The article claims that "The 1997 movie Titanic...did not depict that Margaret Brown was the impetus for the return." As far as I can tell, the movie did clearly depict her causing the return. What's going on here, am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.73.166 (talk) 08:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Portrayed by a city in California?

It says she was portrayed by "Morgan Hill" in (1998) (Titanic: Secrets Revealed) (TV documentary), but the link goes to the page for Morgan Hill, CA. According to IMDB, that is the only thing Morgan Hill (actress) has done, which is likely why she doesn't have a wiki page. The article should not link to the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.61.150.36 (talk) 23:42, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No Consensus to move. Redirects will ensure readers find the correct article Mike Cline (talk) 20:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

---

Margaret Brown → Molly Brown – Per WP:CommonName, which makes no exception for accuracy. Molly, despite its lack of any historical basis, is far and away the best-known name thanks to Molly-named film portrayals of her by Debbie Reynolds and Kathy Bates.

Molly is the most famous Margaret Brown, Margaret Wise Brown is next, and none of the others are even a close third. Since Margaret Wise Brown is never referred to without all three names, "Margaret Brown" should be a redirect to Molly. If this gets done, I'll add a note added at the top directing readers to Margaret Wise Brown and the disambiguation page. 02:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

• Do not move Renaming a biography of someone to reflect a stage musical and a character from a movie is just silly and has no encyclopedic value. The nick name will redirect to the proper named article.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is part of policy and, like I said up there, it makes no exception for accuracy. CityOfSilver 21:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment there needs to be a dab page for Molly Brown or Molly Brown (disambiguation). 65.94.77.11 (talk) 05:09, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support Makes sense Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ran for Senate in 1909?

The article claims she ran for Senate in 1909. This is odd, since that wasn't an election year. Does anybody know what's up with that? —MiguelMunoz (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

After a bit of checking, I learned that Colorado's Senators were Simon Guggenheim, who served a single six year term from 1907 to 1913, and Charles J. Hughes, Jr., who served part of one term, starting in 1909. (He died in office.) Could M. Brown have run against him in the 1908 election, for the term that began in 1909? I'm just speculating. If somebody knows, please fix this. Thanks. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Margaret couldn't have run for the Senate in 1909. In those days senators were appointed by the state legislatures. Dave Gittins.

Actually, neither criticism holds up completely. First, there could have been an interim election in 1909. After the death of a senator, an interim election can be held to fill the term until the next regular election. Second, although the senators were technically appointed by the state legislators, most states at that time held popular elections for senator and the legislatures ratified the result by appointing the winner. Colorado probably did it this way because western states were far more "democratic" than those in the east. The Seventeenth Amendment, in effect in 1913, mostly just ratified the already existing practice. Will Major.

Arbitary move

Why has this article now been moved to a fictional character name never used by the subject person? And contrary to above discussion on this page? SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It appears to have been moved back again (see the edit history). Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 03:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanx! SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Unable to verify

The following was removed -- There is no evidence of a Carnegie Institute in NY (ever), or anywhere else in 1901; earliest (Established 1905): Carnegie Institute of Technology (CIT) at Pittsburgh. The only 'Carnegie' in NY is 'Carnegie Corporation of New York' (1911) and 'Carnegie Hall' (not a place where a "student enrolls").

• REMOVED: In 1901, she was one of the first students to enroll at the Carnegie Institute  in New York.
  

See also: The Carnegie Confusion ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 21:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
However -- "[Carnegie] gave $2 million in 1901 to start the Carnegie Institute of Technology (CIT) at Pittsburgh" -- So, it was started in 1901, but not established until 1905. Was Ms. Brown in Pittsburgh, 1901? ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 23:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Questions for Clarity

The "Early life" section states after her separation with J.J., she received an allowance of $700 per month to continue her activities. The right sidebar (under her picture) states her salary (usually an annual figure) was $700. Which is correct? BJWhyte (talk) 19:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Wedding church

Is there really a Church of the Annunciation in Leadville? The link is to the one in Denver, and I don't think that a brick church building has been relocated that far across the Colorado mountains. 2600:1004:B104:310B:59AE:4694:8B2E:837B (talk) 01:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

hey great artcle here are some articles that can help provide insight on how Mary Brown inspired various films [1][2]--Uoit lyons (talk) 17:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Senate again in 1914?

(Sept 1, 2015) Article states she ran for Senate again in 1914, but there is no mention of an earlier run. That earlier run seems to have happened in 1901 (1902?).

Separation date of 1909 is dead wrong.

I'm looking at the Federal Census records of 1910. James J Brown was still living in the household as her husband. Both her children are living there as is Florence Tobin. Federal Census records cannot be argued with, except for minor details, unless they were flat out lying. Here is the source as cited on the webpage.

Source Citation

Year: 1910; Census Place: Denver Ward 10, Denver, Colorado; Roll: T624_116; Page: 1A; Enumeration District: 0125; FHL microfilm: 1374129

Source Information

Ancestry.com. 1910 United States Federal Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2006.

Original data: Thirteenth Census of the United States, 1910 (NARA microfilm publication T624, 1,178 rolls). Records of the Bureau of the Census, Record Group 29. National Archives, Washington, D.C. For details on the contents of the film numbers, visit the following NARA web page: NARA.

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What life boat she was in

Most people think that she was in life boat 6 but she turned down a spot in life boat 6 so what life boat was she in? She was in life boat 8. 99.209.6.98 (talk) 16:18, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Edits on August 16, 2023

From an edit summary by AMalcomb of some significant changes in this edit:

Changed exterior house photo to a more recent one that shows the current paint color and preserved state. Removed citation about John Tobin being connected to Underground Railroad, now known to be untrue. Removed citation about Margaret Brown being unaccepted by society and Sacred 36, also now known to be untrue. Removed duplicative citation about Legion of Honor Medal. Added information about her house being a museum since 1971. I am the Director of the Molly Brown House.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Clarification regarding Removed citation about John Tobin being connected to Underground Railroad..., the citation wasn't removed the words about being connected to the UR were removed.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:09, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm concerned about information "now known to be untrue". The article is based on reliable published sources. If new information has come to light (and been published by a reliable source), the article should address and rectify the popular misconceptions, not blank them. Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

AMalcomb, could you provide some information here about Tobin/Underground Railroad and about Brown's acceptance by society? Schazjmd (talk) 21:14, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Great point, Schazjmd! I have been thinking about that, too, and it really helps to have your clear message about this. You are so right!

I will finish with the {{Connected contributor}} and user talk COI notification and then put the info into notes. As well as look for sources that state that the info is no longer considered true.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It would be great to have AMalcomb's help with sources that state that the info is no longer considered true.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:19, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I have been searching for sources and made updates to the article here. My summary of the information is:

• John Tobin was believed by family lore to be an abolitionist in Virginia and supported the Underground Railroad.
• He moved to Missouri by 1860 and was a member of a Union militia group. Hannibal, Missouri was a major Underground Railroad gateway. Irish immigrants tended to support abolition of slavery. (i.e., we cannot prove he wasn't involved in the Underground Railroad, but it definitely sounds possible that he was. My thinking since he took a public stand by being a member of a Union militia group.)
• Regarding the "Sacred 36" group, it looks very possible that she was never admitted to this group. But, it does sound like she made inroads in Denver society after her notoriety from surviving the sinking of the Titanic.

Are there any other sources that shed more light?

I think it's fine to leave the items as notes, but it would be good to have input about this.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I like what you did with your updates, @CaroleHenson. Schazjmd (talk) 23:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC)